Featured Post

The Kingdom of Católica America Series

Here is a list of all posts from The Kingdom of Católica America series.  Just follow the links.  There are more to come in the future, and ...

Saturday, July 4, 2015

Casting Out Scoffers, Casting Out SJWs

Lately, Tracy at Fisheaters has been stating that she had to ban me--not because I offended her about gay love--but because of my stance about Catholics winning the social spaces.  Followers will know that for the last year, I have been encouraging Catholics to be more strident and forthright, presenting a robust mix of rhetoric mixed with dialectic, in order to force, shame, and compel our hostile opponents out of the social spaces.

On this topic, I've been a lone voice in my circles, it seems. After this latest ostracization, I shared my latest disappointing observations at Te Deum:

From what I can tell, I do not think that Catholics are at all ready to retake the social spaces. We are collectively still in some kind of a retreat mode. There's no way to turn the herd around to make a charge. Most of us are beaten down, and we're in no mood to go out there and expose ourselves to abuse. The abuse is satanic, and it takes a lot out of a person.
...Overall, I see how the Catholic online community is divided against one another, and I realize that there is likely no possible chance to rally Catholics together in any way for any cause. Any collective bargaining power we could have had will never coalesce. 
Tracy has told me that this tactic of using fire against fire, that serving as a shock trooper against SJWs in the comment spaces, is faulty and wrong.  She states that we should be more concerned about our opponent's conversion.  I, on the other hand, have disagreed.  I have likened such a goal--converting people in com boxes--to going to a nightclub and trying to convert everyone there. The internet com boxes are too brief and casual for such a thing, and our side needs to be heartened to see others standing up strong against the mad tirades of the Left.  And not only that, but strategically, we ought to be trying to win the social spaces away from the Left with superior 'force.' In olden days, people used to do this as a part of their civic duty. Nowadays, its frowned upon as bigoted shaming techniques.  I find this funny, because it is Catholics using shaming tactics on me...for using shaming techniques.

Consider Proverbs 22:10, my favorite book in the Scriptures:  "Cast out the scoffer, and contention shall go out with him, and quarrels and reproaches shall cease."  My only remaining question has been...why haven't the Catholics banded together to cast out these scoffers, then?

The very act of questioning my recent tactic has given me pause and caused me to question the validity of the method.  (I could have been brought to this point without getting cut off from, yet, another Catholic community.)  I have therefore gone straight to the source for answers to my dilemma.  I have gone straight to the Dread Ilk, as well as Vox Day with my question.
I decided to share the whole "drive SJWs out of the social spaces" schtick--using force with force--with my fellow Catholics on a Catholic forum. Long story short, I was kicked out. I've been kicked out of a few places, actually.
The idea has been very appealing. And I can even find a small handful examples of taunts and mockery among a few Biblical figures and saints. However, the vast amount of examples of mocking people in the Bible appear to be characteristics of the heathens. Today, I am feeling compelled to drop the tactic, unless Vox has more to add to this approach.
Two verses that struck me the strongest are: 
Proverbs 29:8
Scorners set a city aflame, But wise men turn away anger.
and Proverbs 22:10
Drive out the scoffer, and contention will go out, Even strife and dishonor will cease.
Verses from Proverbs, no less. My favorite book in the Scriptures. Could I be reading Vox wrong? Is his version of fighting fire with fire--SJW tactics with SJW tactics--somehow different from the examples of the scoffers? We have an example of sarcasm from Elijah, Micaiah, and five instances from Jesus that I know of. I know of a handful of other examples of robust rhetoric from Catholic saints. Yet, mockery and ridicule seem to be trademarks of evil men. Vox, I hope you help me on this. Accepting your tactic (if I'm doing it right) has gotten me banned from several places.
http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Mockery

I have yet to receive any reply from Vox Day.  I should probably just send him the question personally as a next step.  However, I have received some replies from the Dread Ilk.  They are as follows:


Zeno

"Accepting your tactic (if I'm doing it right) has gotten me banned from several places."

Sort of like Vox?  And you expected what?

First you show them they are wrong, and then you mock.  Is that your modus operandi, or just mockery off the top?

Jim 

Proverbs 22:10
"Drive out the scoffer, and contention will go out, Even strife and dishonor will cease."

Tell me: how do you intend to drive out the scoffer?

Mike Farnsworth

You have to consider your venue. Remember debate is not intended to convince your opponent so much as convince (the undecideds among) the audience. If the tone of a forum is such that going hardline will get you kicked out, then adjust your strategy appropriately. That doesn't mean you contravene your own principles, it just means you adjust to gain maximal effect.

It is totally appropriate to point out what SJWs and entryists are doing, and even subtly use their tactics against them in a way that most people won't notice. If that's all you can do, then do it and let the others come to their own conclusions about what to do about the SJWs.

Mockery and taunts are only effective in certain situations. One of my favorite stories in the Bible is Elijah and the prophets of baal, and how much fun he had in the process leading up to a (fatal to them) miracle. There's a time and a place for that sort of thing, but equally there are times and places where it's not appropriate. You have to keep your spiritual eyes and ears open for when the Spirit tells what to do, because obviously He is going to know far better than we do in a given situation what is most effective.

In fact, that's the most important thing: listen to the Holy Spirit, and practice listening. You'd be surprised how often you get indicators on what to do. Galations 5:22-26 would apply, here is a mini-guide for how to recognize and cultivate that skill:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Cail Corishev

Laramie, it's a tricky line to walk. The problem, of course, is the moderates. They'll hold you to a much higher standard than they hold the SJWs, so if you come on half as strong as they do, you just get banned. Take an example from a different area, like GamerGate:

anti-GamerGater: Die in a fire, GG scum. I'm going to get you fired and send ISIS to rape your children.
GamerGater: If you don't stop that, aGGer, I'll fight back.
Moderate: Hey, GGer, you're sounding hateful. Please be nicer and try to get along.

Yes, the imbalance really is that ridiculous. But it means you can't come on strong out of the gate. You have to keep them loosened up with humor and dialectic. Think of those as your jabs, and mix them up to keep the moderates from thinking they know where you're coming from. You're not allowed to seem emotional or to take strong stances; that's only allowed to SJWs. Look into Socratic dialogue, where you ask questions and let them come to the right conclusions on their own -- but don't overdo it, because then they'll accuse you of sealioning. Appeal to their pride in being more moderate and above-it-all than everyone else.

It's hard to describe as a specific strategy, and it doesn't always work, because they've stacked the deck against you. But you can chip away and have some victories. They won't necessarily be out in the open, but you'll get the occasional private message of appreciation from someone who gets it.

And sometimes you just have to recognize that a community is closed to the truth, and shake the dust from your sandals and move on.

Anonymous 1

There's a fine line between sarcasm as a tool and social autism. When I took speech class many years ago, rule number one was Know Your Audience. You need to (a) know your audience, and (b) be a respected member of the community to be able to use them effectively.

For example, Elijah's mockery of the prophets of baal wasn't for the benefit of the prophets of baal. It was to make a point to those watching. And at the end of that story, Elijah did wind up fleeing for his life.

Paul also got lowered out of a city in a basket...

What you have to keep in mind (and this goes double if you're reading Alpha Game), is that the position that Vox is shooting from and the position that you are shooting from are not really the same. He likes to take his shots from Vox Popoli, a position of strength, backed by the Ilk. He did get thrown out of the SFWA by the SJW's. So his experience is not considerably different in that regard.

Anonymous 2

Exactly, Robert. Vox's whole point about the mockery and grinding his opponents into the dust intellectually is that it might help others. The object of the mockery has already rendered himself useless.

There's plenty more mockery and biting sarcasm in the Bible. Just look at some of Paul's letters to the Church.

I totally agree that there is a time to drop the mockery. And that time is when you are dealing with someone who is honestly seeking truth and understanding. That's when you say "let's go an a little intellectual journey and see if we can't figure this thing out for you."

Anonymous 3 

Do not answer A fool according to his folly lest you become like him; answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.

Anonymous 4

Christ frequently used mockery and sarcasm when dealing with the morally bankrupt and deceitful "religious" leaders. Why, because they were drunk on their own power and convinced of their own righteousness. Christ was also full of compassion and showed great love for those who were seeking truth or in desperate physical need.(the woman at the well, the lame man at the pool)

Sometimes you have to call men a den of vipers or whited sepulchres and then you have to turn around and say, "come unto me all ye that are wiry and heavy laden."

Yes it's knowing your audience, but it is also discernment, knowing why people are saying and doing what they do.

Some people say stupid things because they don't know the truth and are looking for answers. Some people are so full of hate for God and His truth that they are actively and knowingly fighting against the truth. It takes time and hard work to distinguish between the two.

Anonymous 5

I fail to see why getting banned is evidence of a bad tactic. Jesus got crucified. Does that mean He was doing it wrong?

* * *

Thank you, Dread Ilk, for your answers thus far.

2 comments:

  1. Hello Hirsch,

    I was informed on FE that you wished to speak with me. Needless to say I am sorry you were banned and I am disappointed in the silence on FE. Just wanted to reach out.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Austenbosten,

    Howdy! I just wanted you to know that I didn't run away, and that I'm usually out here at the outpost. I'm sorry we never got to kick-start that campaign for CAF we were planning to do.

    Keep in touch.

    -Laramie

    ReplyDelete